By Jennifer Abel
Jennifer Abel has worked as a reporter and editor
for local newspapers in Connecticut. She contributes to online
publications including Playboy, the Guardian, Anorak, Daily Dot, Salon
and Mashable.
Read Full Bio→
xcxcxcDeservedly or not, eBay and PayPal have long had reputations for being unfair to eBay sellers (especially small-time ones).eBay and PayPal are already facing multiple class-action suits
from sellers complaining about an alleged “buyer is always right”
policy: specifically, claiming that eBay and PayPal, the
payment-processing company currently owned by eBay (though the two are
splitting off into separate companies
next year), consistently side with buyers over sellers in any dispute,
thus making it easy for dishonest buyers to keep whatever items they
bought and receive a full refund of the purchase price, too.
And a newly proposed change to PayPal's return policy, slated to come into effect on November 18, will arguably make matters worse:
We’re
increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not
Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.
All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45
days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.”
Six-month window
In
other words: any buyer using PayPal to purchase items from online
vendors will enjoy a six-month return window, which in turn means no
seller can assume a transaction is truly complete (and payment received
truly theirs) for that long.
Arguably, there are many types of
purchases for which a 180-day return window is reasonable, or even too
small: if you buy a major new appliance, for example, you'd certainly
want to return it for a full refund if it stopped working less than six
months later, or even after a year.
But for other types of new
items (and most secondhand goods), a six-month return policy might be
overkill. Consider: in August, when we reported
the then-latest updates in various “seller is always wrong” suits
against eBay and PayPal, reader and eBay seller Alex Leonova wrote on
Aug. 15 to point out why eBay's current return policy might be a little too generous, at least regarding the sale of shoes:
Ebay
took from me about $200 in fees and forced me to refund money for a
pair of shoes that I sold 3 months ago because a guy suddenly changed
his mind. With their new policy of 90 MONEY BACK GURANTEED for the
Holiday, it's a total BS. A person if buys a gently used item can wear
stuff then return it after 90 days and if you won't even accept a return
they will just deduct the $$ from your account. Also that sellers
cannot leave negative feedback to buyers or make a note that should be
addressed also! That's very corrupt way to do business.
But
if a 90-day return policy for new clothes and shoes is bad, a six-month
return policy for antique items is arguably worse. In response to the
proposed PayPal policy change, the Vintage Fashion Guild posted a petition onto Change.org asking that the sellers of vintage and antique items be exempted from the 180-day return window, because:
Vintage
and antique goods are delicate and fragile and often require careful
handling and storage. It is important that purchases be opened,
inspected, and then properly stored within a reasonable time-frame to
ensure they remain in the condition they were sent. Not doing so can
compromise the goods and even cause them to deteriorate. This new policy
removes the sense of urgency in taking care of a vintage or antique
item soon after its delivery and allows too long of a time window for
the item to sit in its packaging and potentially become damaged by rough
handling, extreme temperature changes, etc. Simply put, Paypal's new
policy will be overly burdensome and possibly disastrous to those who
sell vintage and antique goods online. To expect a seller to refund for
claims for vintage and antique goods that have been out of their
possession for 180 days is unreasonable. ... we formally request that
these type of sales continue to be governed by PayPal's current 45 day
policy which is fair to both buyers and sellers.
PayPal's
new return policy does exempt certain types of purchases, including
real estate, businesses, industrial machinery and “intangible items,
including digital goods.” But it says nothing about clothing, shoes, or
secondhand items of any age. The policy's much shorter “seller
protection” says only:
PayPal Seller protection is protection we provide Sellers from Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals that are based on:
Unauthorized Transaction or
Item Not Received
PayPal
Seller protection is available for eligible payments from buyers in any
country. However, if you sell or market to buyers outside the U.S.,
please read the PayPal Buyer Protection policy and PayPal Seller
Protection policy of the countries in which you are selling (accessible
via the “Legal” or “Legal Agreements” footer on most PayPal site pages)
as these policies will apply to you as a Payment Recipient or seller.
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Mark Debehnke
I
had been selling antiques and art on eBay since 1998 and tolerated
their abusive anti seller policies that grew worse and worse. I quit
selling there recently because of their anti seller policies. Although
they are supposed to separate later in 2015, both eBay and paypal are
one and the same. They made it difficult to accept checks, then started
taking part of the shipping fee in order to force people to offer free
shipping. This caused an increase in the shipping fees to my customers.
They have basically priced themselves out of my market. A very corrupt
way of doing business. I won't do business with them any more.
Richard Hicks
They should respect sellers no return policy and buyers should read conditions before buying
Caryn Schneider Mcgregor
Fantastic
article and very well written. It should be a buyer's responsibility to
open and inspect their items in a timely fashion. It shouldn't take
longer than a few days to check their items, not 45 days, and certainly
not 6 months!
Paulette Delor Green
I
started selling antiques & collectibles on eBay back in 1997 and
had used Paypal almost since inception (when it was free and you were
guaranteed no chargebacks). I totally stopped dealing with both about
two years ago and was very vocal on their boards about potential abuses
for certain categories of items. I'm so glad I walked away back
then.....their business model sucks and I hope many more sellers leave.
Brett King
The
new policy is fantastic and a long time in coming. The only issue is
that it is needed in SOME catagories, but it now applies to all, so I
understand the concerns of Sellers who have posted previously.
I purchase rare stamps on eBay, and once purchased often submit them to
an expert services to confirm condition (this often requires expensive
equipement to do, and takes 3-4 months). I have a STACK of certificates
showing I paid $$$$ for stamps that come back as worth $. Previosuly
there was nothing I could do as the short return window on eBay had
passed, yet it takes up to 4 months to get the certificate back and know
if there is a problem. This will make collecting on eBay much, much
better, and will force Sellers to accuratly describe their listings.
Kudos to PayPal for understanding this and changing the policy, I'm
tired of getting ripped off.
BUT, the problem is that many catogories don't really require 6 months.
If I buy a ceramic pumpkin on eBay, I should be able to tell right away
if it was as described. In this case, 6 months seems unfair to the
seller.
What is needed is sitatuions where eBay/Paypal understand up to 6 month
is really needed (such as when a certificate of authenticity is to be
obtained), and others where it is not and could result in abusive
practices. Overall this new policiy is very helpful to me, as I have
lost thousands of dollars on eBay due to misdescribed listings. Thank
you PayPal.
Dwain Harris
Is
this even legal? Seriously. There is no reason for a 6 month return
policy on used items. Other than "item not described", there is no
excuse for 6 months to figure out if something is not as described. So
now buyers can wear clothes, use electronics, break antiques and then
just contact paypal and lie about it and get %100 of their cash
refunded? Why such a harsh treatment towards sellers? I can understand
"bad" sellers but sellers with good ratings shouldn't have to be raked
over the coals with a 6 month charge back.
Doug Palmieri
We've
simply stopped accepting PayPal as a payment option on any venue except
eBay (since, in an apparent violation of federal anti-trust laws,
sellers are virtually required to accept PayPal and ONLY PayPal, unless a
potential bidder/buyer asks ahead of time if you accept other forms of
payment). The new 180-day return policy is so absurd in many areas that
it almost defies description. We sell old, used and rare books, very
occasionally vintage comic books and even more rarely vintage baseball
cards. An unscrupulous buyer can purchase one of these things at a low
price (eBay buyers are notoriously among the cheapest people currently
on the planet), try to sell them at a profit or get them professionally
graded in the case of cards or comics, and , if they can't make a
profit, "damage" the piece and claim a refund up to six months later.
There is simply no way that a seller can hold monies in reserve for up
to 6 months.
The solution we intend to use is to empty our PayPal balance every week
or so, leaving only a few dollars in the account (typically we hold the
cash in the PayPal account until we know by way of Delivery Confirmation
that the customer has received the item--most honest folks will let you
know right away if there is a problem with an item). That gives PayPal
no recourse to freezing and/or eventually refunding monies to a
dishonest buyer---there simply no monies in the account to refund. Also,
we keep a balance of under $25 in the bank account they demand as
"backup funding source", so they can't take it from there either (and in
any event, this could be adjudged as a felony--a deliberate
unauthorized transaction under federal banking regulations.
Finally, if you have a credit card as your backup funding source and
they place a charge, unauthorized by you, on that card, the credit card
issuer (we use American Express) will almost always back up the card
holder. You would (and should) then contact he appropriate governmental
department, in most states the Attorney General's office and/or the
Department of Consumer Affairs, and formally charge PayPal with making a
fraudulent credit card transaction. Followed by an email mail to them
asking, "Do you like apples? How do you like THEM apples?"
Jonathan Mankuta
Absolute
insanity. As a big seller, I can say I'm also ready to jump on class
action lawsuits against ebay for dishonest practices against sellers.
It's already BEYOND unfair to sellers who can't even call out dishonest
scammers in their feedback, but to initiate this new policy, is beyond
crooked...I will literally be pulling out my 7-figure business...I have
been burned wayyyy too many times already, and these new scummy ideas
will literally ruin businesses and make ebay and PayPal accessories in
scams...
Janey Gatewood
180
Days is absolutely an incredible disservice to e-bay sellers; we
already have people returning items because they want it to be in new
condition but pay for a pre-owned item. This is going to make me think
about continuing my business!! E-bay better listen to their sellers -
without us, they are nothing!!
Laura Milera
This
is an amazing story and I thank you for exposing the latest
problematic policy being pushed through by PayPal, with its unreasonable
6 months return period, and the harm that it will do to all small
businesses, particularly sellers of vintage and antique goods.
Harvey Montana
This
is absolutely ridiculous and completely unacceptable! if this draconian
policy really does go into effect, I'm out. Really, it looks like
greedbay is trying to force smaller sellers out in favor of big
corporations.
And as we all leave, so goes the unique and antique items we find and
resell.
Greedbay will then be nothing more than a huge online K-Mart.
Scott Nelson
Seller
"protection" is a joke. Notice that it doesn't protect against
chargebacks for "item not as described". All a buyer has to do is wait
until the eBay/PayPal return period is expired, then simply reverse
charges.
Someone did that to me on a $200 item - He filed a chargeback with his
credit card company, stating the item was not as described. I had to
return the $200 PLUS chargeback fees, and the buyer kept the item. Oh,
and I had to pay eBay & PayPal fees too, of course. PayPal would do
nothing about it, stating that their policy doesn't cover items not as
described cases. A major loophole, to say the least. PayPal did send
the buyer a "courtesy email" asking him to return the item.. LOL, yeah
right. I'll give you three guesses as to how that one turned out.
Bottom line: Don't sell anything on eBay that you can't afford to
lose. That's why I now try craigslist and local ads for in-person,
cash-only deals for expensive items.
Jamie Baker
I
plan on selling off all of the inventory I have left for ebay and then
closing my account. There are plenty of other options than PayPal and
ebay.
Fawn Vergona
The
author states, "Arguably, there are many types of purchases for which a
180-day return window is reasonable, or even too small: if you buy a
major new appliance, for example, you'd certainly want to return it for a
full refund if it stopped working less than six months later, or even
after a year." ---Isn't that what a manufacturer's warranty is for?
Bettes Bargains Vintage
Thank
you the excellent article. One point to remember is that this policy
affects other venues besides ebay. Zibbet, Artfire and ones own website
are a few examples.
Mark Andrews
We
sell antiquarian books, maps and prints typically from between 1580 to
the year 1900. Recently we placed onto eBay a 157 year old book which
was in poor condition.
We described the book repeatedly as being in poor condition referring to
it also repeatedly as a breaker, which is to say, fit only for breaking
apart to extract from it the full page steel engravings inside which
actually make up it's value.
The book sold by auction (with a starting price of £1) for the sum of
£80 plus £7 for post. We clearly stated no returns will be accepted in
the auction listing as the book was described accurately as being in
poor condition.
Also I am a professional copywriter and I write long form direct
response adverts for a living, so I understand full well the importance
of describing items for sale accurately and honestly.
The photos too which I took of the book (12 in total) did not try to
hide the damage to the book. Foxing was prevalent throughout the volume
from light foxing on some pages to medium foxing to heavy foxing plus
holes in some of the pages. All of this was mentioned very clearly in
the auction description and the photographs taken clearly backed this
up.
The buyer on receiving the book immediately contacted me on receiving
the 157 year old book and complained that it was in poor condition and
demanded a full refund of his money and stated that I must pay for his
full return postage cost of the book back to us. This request was
refused as the book in question was described accurately as being in
poor condition to start with.
He then opened up a case with eBay and stated that the book was
significantly not as described and claimed that it was in poor
condition. eBay instantly refunded him in full of their own accord and
then demanded (and are still demanding) that we pay them the £87 which
they now claim is outstanding.
The buyer has still kept the book in question and despite repeated
requests to send it back to us refuses to cooperate. In other words, the
'buyer' has now received the book in question FREE of charge and now
eBay expect us to lose the book whilst demanding that we pay them the
£87.00 for it.
Customer support at eBay has been dreadful. We have since emptied our
Paypal account and removed all of our listings off eBay until this
matter is resolved. The entire system at eBay seems to favour the buyer
disregarding anything at all the seller states. eBay seem to be
colluding essentially in the theft of items from honest sellers who are
simply trying their best to earn a living. It really is not on and is
utterly disgusting behaviour on the part of eBay.
We will not be using the service again to sell from after this truly
awful experience and after being an eBay customer for over 11 years and
enjoying in all of that time a perfect sales record with 100% positive
feedback.
Michael Cowles
Like
most businesses that just get too big for their own good… the whole
system will eventually collapse and another will take its place. When
that happens, paypal/ebay will wake up and wonder what happened!
Telephone companies went through this several years ago, charging
unreasonable rates for long distance and toll calls. Now, most
companies allow long distance with no extra charges and there are many
to choose from. Once the strangle hold is cut loose more companies will
offer ebay type selling venues. I'm waiting for the day.
Ruth Harrison
Thank
you for bringing this issue to light. As a UK seller I have a 14 day
return policy. Being forced to offer more than that, for 'buyers
remorse' dressed up as Not As Described, or simply downright fraud,
makes it difficult to do business as a small seller.
Rick Cannon
Drop dead Paypal. I'm switching to Google Checkout if you institute this policy.
Janet Boozell
Wow. First I switched to Collectibles to counteract eBay actions. If I get one 6 month return I'm switching to Amazon and Etsy.
Kevin Lewis
CRAIGSLIST
AND $$ ORDER ARE THE WTG!!! SCREW FEE-BAYAND PAY PAL!! I had over
1000 positive comments no negative I sold a vintage strobe tuner to a
loser in texas he says it was broke and didn't work,, pay pay deducts
the amount of purchase and shipping from my account this guy took good
parts from mine and swapped them I could tell from the fresh soder
joints I closed my accountafter that and the pecker left me my first
negative feedback!!!!!
Brenda Stultz White
Most
buyers will not send money orders because there is no protection for
the buyer. As a buyer, I would not give everyone I wanted to purchase
an item from my credit card information. This is going to be two
problem areas for the sellers if they drop paypal.
Jim Emmerson
according
to paypal, they state that this is already in place with all the
credit card companies. what happens if you only take e-checks from
paypal? (if you can even do that anymore). Also if a customer goes out
and buys a $5000 digital camera, takes it on vacation all over Europe,
takes 1000's of photos. then decides that 1 image is not the quality
it should be and returns it, now the camera is worth 1/4 of the value
to the seller. he has already invested the money in other inventory
and does not have the money to payback. does this count even if the
buyer leaves feedback?
Diane Turrell Graf
Limo
just one more way they are trying to push the smaller sellers of used
items out and primarily sell for big box companies....Amazon wanna best
:(
Bryan Pilcher
the cust should always be right whats wrong with this country damit man
Lucy Rodriguez
In
my experiences with Ebay sellers, as a buyer thru many years, have
been generally satisfactory - however, many sellers are not native
English speaking and when questions arise, before considering a purchase
from them, -- that's when the communication becomes 'fuzzy'! And
that's when I need to be careful personally! I do value PayPal and am
glad they're on my "side"!
Tim Cantrell
The
antique Golden Age comics recently sold would or could be destroyed
even in 45 days. Without integrity this system will not work. The only
other option is to create actual Ebay stores to verify all goods coming
and going.
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